http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2006/10/2 ... 1028101330
Having been drawn (pardon the pun) to the article above, I was amazed to see the scientific inferences regarding Di Vinci's ethnic origins. There are certainly ethnic traits in level 1 patterns, but to make a leap of faith that Di Vinci was of Arabic descent is fanciful surely?
By the way, check out the 'composite' fingerprint they manufactured. Doesn't look like any fingerprint I have ever seen?
Views anyone?
regards
Dave
Fingerprints is art....ask Di Vinci!!
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charlton97
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Michele
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Dave,
This article brings up 2 issues for me. First, the difference between an answer and a conclusion. And second, the mistake of transposing Bayes conditional probability theorem.
1) It’s interesting to think about the difference between an answer and a conclusion. An answer is simply a response to a question but a conclusion is usually the result of the deduction process and may require insight into the reasoning process. We can have right answers that were arrived at incorrectly and we can have wrong answers where the logic behind the answer was basically correct.
2) With regard to the misuse of Bayes condition probability theorem, just because all fish live in water doesn’t mean that if you live in the water you are a fish. The same would be true in this article, perhaps 60% of people in the Middle East have central whorls but that doesn’t mean that if you have central whorls you are more likely to have come from this region.
Putting these two concepts together, these researchers might have the right answer but it doesn’t look like their research is good support for their conclusion.
And……is that print a central whorl? It looks like a left slant loop to me.
This article brings up 2 issues for me. First, the difference between an answer and a conclusion. And second, the mistake of transposing Bayes conditional probability theorem.
1) It’s interesting to think about the difference between an answer and a conclusion. An answer is simply a response to a question but a conclusion is usually the result of the deduction process and may require insight into the reasoning process. We can have right answers that were arrived at incorrectly and we can have wrong answers where the logic behind the answer was basically correct.
2) With regard to the misuse of Bayes condition probability theorem, just because all fish live in water doesn’t mean that if you live in the water you are a fish. The same would be true in this article, perhaps 60% of people in the Middle East have central whorls but that doesn’t mean that if you have central whorls you are more likely to have come from this region.
Putting these two concepts together, these researchers might have the right answer but it doesn’t look like their research is good support for their conclusion.
And……is that print a central whorl? It looks like a left slant loop to me.
Michele
The best way to escape from a problem is to solve it. Alan Saporta
There is nothing so useless as doing efficiently that which should not be done at all. Peter Drucker
(Applies to a full A prior to C and blind verification)
The best way to escape from a problem is to solve it. Alan Saporta
There is nothing so useless as doing efficiently that which should not be done at all. Peter Drucker
(Applies to a full A prior to C and blind verification)
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Steve Everist
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It sounds to me like they had the answer first - they wanted to show that his mother was actually a Middle Eastern peasant slave. Then they tried to fit the proof to that answer.
Unfortunately, what they've done is very poor science. They discuss their researchers findings, yet mention nothing of involvement from actual fingerprint experts.
Then they mention the existence of a few instances where a complete fingerprint was left by DaVinci - yet the one they used was created from a combination of different fingerprints that "matched and completed the Ermine markings." This composite print doesn't look right.
They mention that they have found hundreds of fingerprints, yet they can somehow (without the ability to compare) attribute some to his apprentices and that they can isolate and extract which were his. Once again - this is without any known prints to compare!
They go on to say that, "The fingerprint features patterns such as the central whorl that are dominant in the Middle East. About 60 percent of the Middle Eastern population display the same dermatoglyphic structure found in the fingerprint,". As Michele said, it doesn't look like a central whorl, even if you could trust the recurve at the bottom. More likely a left slant loop. To say that 60% display the same structure ignores that ~65% of all prints are loops. And that's not confined regionally.
I'm all loops - is this proof that I have DaVinci lineage???
I guess not, since that doesn't fit their plan of DaVinci coming from Middle Eastern slave descent.
Shame on the Discovery Channel for even presenting this to the public.
Unfortunately, what they've done is very poor science. They discuss their researchers findings, yet mention nothing of involvement from actual fingerprint experts.
Then they mention the existence of a few instances where a complete fingerprint was left by DaVinci - yet the one they used was created from a combination of different fingerprints that "matched and completed the Ermine markings." This composite print doesn't look right.
They mention that they have found hundreds of fingerprints, yet they can somehow (without the ability to compare) attribute some to his apprentices and that they can isolate and extract which were his. Once again - this is without any known prints to compare!
They go on to say that, "The fingerprint features patterns such as the central whorl that are dominant in the Middle East. About 60 percent of the Middle Eastern population display the same dermatoglyphic structure found in the fingerprint,". As Michele said, it doesn't look like a central whorl, even if you could trust the recurve at the bottom. More likely a left slant loop. To say that 60% display the same structure ignores that ~65% of all prints are loops. And that's not confined regionally.
I'm all loops - is this proof that I have DaVinci lineage???
I guess not, since that doesn't fit their plan of DaVinci coming from Middle Eastern slave descent.
Shame on the Discovery Channel for even presenting this to the public.
Steve E.
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sharon cook
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g.
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poll question
Dave,
I have a problem responding to your poll: it's the question.
If you are asking if I believe that DaVinci is of middle eastern descent: then I don't know. No answer. He could be. He could not be.
If you are asking if I believe that DaVinci is of middle eastern descent BASED on the fingerprint "evidence"? Well, then emphatically "no". That's just 'crazy talk'. I agree with Steve and Michelle, it's seems like trying to fit it together. Bad science....
g.
I have a problem responding to your poll: it's the question.
If you are asking if I believe that DaVinci is of middle eastern descent: then I don't know. No answer. He could be. He could not be.
If you are asking if I believe that DaVinci is of middle eastern descent BASED on the fingerprint "evidence"? Well, then emphatically "no". That's just 'crazy talk'. I agree with Steve and Michelle, it's seems like trying to fit it together. Bad science....
g.
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charlton97
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Vinci codes
the poll is most definitely based on the junk science portrayed in the article. Like you I don't know of the origins of his ancestry....but we never will based on this fingerprint research.....it all seems a bit of a leap in the dark to me!!
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Dick Dastardly
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I am no expert of course. However, as someone who has an interest in fingerprints and their uses in law enforcement, and a passing interest in art forgery, I wonder if the technique of fingerprint identification could be used in confirming authorship of artwork when it is disputed. I suppose it may be possible to examine prints from some kinds of canvas (in particular the back of a canvas beneath the frame), or perhaps even DNA, that can be cross referenced to known art works of a particular artist. This may be especially so for more modern artists using modern materials.
As a non expert, the whole print looks like it has been twisted through 66 degrees just to make the theory fit.
DD.
As a non expert, the whole print looks like it has been twisted through 66 degrees just to make the theory fit.
DD.
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Ernie Hamm
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Pat A. Wertheim
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As a private consultant, I was once hired by Leonardo da Vinci to confirm her identity.
Yes, I kid you not! A woman who believed she was the reincarnation of Leonardo da Vinci (as portrayed in the Mona Lisa) contacted me to verify that the fingerprints in the painting of "Woman with an Ermine" (I believe that was the title) were hers. Just for the novelty of it, I accepted the case.
I learned that the old masters used their fingertips with light paint on them for shading and that their fingerprints show up in their paintings in that way. I also learned that most of the old masters, Leonardo included, ran painting factories in which they hired many other painters to mass produce works for which they alone took the credit. In the case of Leonardo, "Woman with an Ermine" (or whatever its title is) is the only truly authenticated work of Leonardo himself. Or so I was told by the modern Leonardo (Mona Lisa?) and at least one art historian.
In the end, my report to the client reflected that the comparisons of the fingerprints in "Woman with an Ermine" with her fingerprints were inconclusive, as the fingerprints in the painting were too overlapped and fragmented to be of value for comparison. Thus, I concluded that perhaps some mysteries are better left unsolved.
By the way, she never paid my modest bill for services rendered. I guess she didn't like my results.
Yes, I kid you not! A woman who believed she was the reincarnation of Leonardo da Vinci (as portrayed in the Mona Lisa) contacted me to verify that the fingerprints in the painting of "Woman with an Ermine" (I believe that was the title) were hers. Just for the novelty of it, I accepted the case.
I learned that the old masters used their fingertips with light paint on them for shading and that their fingerprints show up in their paintings in that way. I also learned that most of the old masters, Leonardo included, ran painting factories in which they hired many other painters to mass produce works for which they alone took the credit. In the case of Leonardo, "Woman with an Ermine" (or whatever its title is) is the only truly authenticated work of Leonardo himself. Or so I was told by the modern Leonardo (Mona Lisa?) and at least one art historian.
In the end, my report to the client reflected that the comparisons of the fingerprints in "Woman with an Ermine" with her fingerprints were inconclusive, as the fingerprints in the painting were too overlapped and fragmented to be of value for comparison. Thus, I concluded that perhaps some mysteries are better left unsolved.
By the way, she never paid my modest bill for services rendered. I guess she didn't like my results.
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Hillary Moses
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There's something decidedly fishy going on here... if I hadn't observed that the link was from "Discovery", I would have assumed this was an article on page 12 of the "Weekly World News"... just below the headline, "New England woman gives birth to triplets with rhinocerous horns!"
If you're having a bad day: wwww.weeklyworldnews.com
If you're having a bad day: wwww.weeklyworldnews.com