CLPEX Chat Board

Posted: **Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:58 am**

Hello Folks

More curiosity than anything else...who uses what. I still very happily use CS2 because I am too stingy to upgrade every other year...also, my photography does not bring in that much money yet and my Photoshop skills do not demand the latest version.

BTW, I do mean for latent print work of course...

Posted: **Sun Aug 22, 2010 8:37 pm**

I can spent 1/2 hr on Photoshop or 2 minutes on Paint Shop Pro and get a better result.

Posted: **Sun Aug 22, 2010 8:38 pm**

must admit to not training on either though.

Posted: **Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:25 am**

Neville wrote:must admit to not training on either though.

Aha!!

Photoshop is...well...a steep learning curve at first...once you get a hang of the basic idea it is a breeze.

Posted: **Wed Aug 25, 2010 5:24 pm**

Hmmm... CS3 in my work computer, CS2 in my personal PC, and CS4 Extended in my personal Mac (CS5 Ext trial version ended).

Posted: **Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:19 pm**

Steve Everist wrote:Hmmm... CS3 in my work computer, CS2 in my personal PC, and CS4 Extended in my personal Mac (CS5 Ext trial version ended).

You lucky man!

Posted: **Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:42 am**

We went from CS to CS3 at work, although by the time the computers were finally set up and installed, CS4 was just around the corner. The CS2 was part of a suite upgrade from version 5.0 that I had purchased about 10 years ago. I purchased CS4 (suite) with a student discount due to taking a course at a community college.

That seems to be the best way to go about buying it for personal use. If you have a local college that has classes that qualify for student edition pricing, take the course and get the software. Often times the combined cost of the two is much less than the suite price - and you get a class. The price for the entire suite was where the real deal was.

I only spent a month with CS5 Extended trial, and taught a workshop at the Spokane IAI using it, but I really don't see a big difference in functionality for forensic purposes over CS4. But there were pretty big jumps from CS2 to CS3 to CS4.

Posted: **Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:44 pm**

I only have an old version at home I think it is Photoshop 7 and one other older version 5? In my last office we had CS2 I have been using them from time to time over the last 6 or 7 years and I hate it, it is not intuitive in any sense of the word.

I know that Photoshop is the benchmark for this type of software from year dot when Apple Macintosh released it and that everyone says it is the best, I also believe that once you are trained on it you will be sold on it.

I have been involved in digital enhancement software usage for the last 20yrs using 5 different software packages and Photoshop is by far the hardest to master. It is designed firstly as an artistic package, to remove and add pixels at will (rub out ridges or draw them in) and in more recent years has had add-ons to make it a pseudo forensic package, but it was never designed originally for this purpose. Paintshop Pro of cause does not even pretend to be.

I think what has happened is that people have come into forensics with a background of using Photoshop or knowing it is the benchmark for commercial work have then naturally adapted it for forensic use. That is fine I guess, I am just saying that there is much easier software to use out there that is often cheaper, or especially designed for forensic use and is often more intuitive.

I also wonder if what has occurred is that Police Photographers have taken on practices used within the commercial world of photography and made that the standards for police work. Other forensic areas of policing have then taken on these practices as a normal police function.

I must admit we have had this argument here in NZ with neither side convincing the other so I doubt that it will be any different on this forum. My argument is, do you have the time to train all the staff on this software when other options require little or no training.

As for which version is the best, it must always be the latest, Adobe does not employ all those people writing software updates just for the fun of it. You usually just have to upgrade the processing power of the computers to cope. But then Steve would have far more idea on that than I would.

Posted: **Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:39 pm**

Neville wrote:I only have an old version at home I think it is Photoshop 7 and one other older version 5? In my last office we had CS2 I have been using them from time to time over the last 6 or 7 years and I hate it, it is not intuitive in any sense of the word.

I think what has happened is that people have come into forensics with a background of using Photoshop or knowing it is the benchmark for commercial work have then naturally adapted it for forensic use. That is fine I guess, I am just saying that there is much easier software to use out there that is often cheaper, or especially designed for forensic use and is often more intuitive.

When I became an LPE in 1998, I had no Photoshop or photographic skills whatsoever. Everything I know how to do has been learned since then, mostly centered around forensic/fingerprint work. That may be why I prefer macro photography over other types as I'm much more comfortable with it. As far as intuitive goes, I can't really unlearn what I know to say whether or not it is or isn't. In a way, I think that depends on the individual trying to learn it too. Although I've had a class in PowerPoint, I'm much more comfortable using PS than PowerPoint - it's just not completely intuitive to me. But I'm also more interested in PS, so I'm less inclined to go out of my way to learn advanced techniques in PowerPoint.

I must admit we have had this argument here in NZ with neither side convincing the other so I doubt that it will be any different on this forum. My argument is, do you have the time to train all the staff on this software when other options require little or no training.

Which options require little or no training?
Our new LPE's receive training in PS as part of the training program. Many of our examiners predate the use of Photoshop in our office, so they've received different training over the course of their careers. Many have went to the FBI Academy to take advantage of many of the classes that they offer which include both photography and digital imaging, we've brought George Reis in to our office in the past, some have went to other training offered by instructors such as David Witzke and Brian Dalrymple. I've also taught my charting workshop for 17 of our 18 LPE's, and will be again some time in the future for the other one plus a few who would like to have it over again.
Since it's commonly used in our office, everyone should be trained to some level of competency, so the time should be made (in my opinion).
We also use it every day, which helps to maintain our skills.

As for which version is the best, it must always be the latest, Adobe does not employ all those people writing software updates just for the fun of it. You usually just have to upgrade the processing power of the computers to cope. But then Steve would have far more idea on that than I would.

The best version is pretty much any version you have that you're comfortable using. Many of the revisions don't specifically do anything different from a forensic perspective. When I taught my first workshop in early 2009, I had CS2 in my laptop. Since the class was going to be taught on computers with the trial version of CS4 on them, I was going to have to purchase it. It wouldn't work well in my old PC, so that's when I decided to buy a Mac and install CS4 on that. When I was going to do a workshop at the Spokane IAI, the computers would be loaded with CS5. So I downloaded the trial version to go through the different aspects I would be covering. I didn't see any major differences that would need to be addressed, so I haven't purchased it. I wouldn't recommend getting CS5 if you've already got CS4.

The major issue I see currently regarding the different versions is the training that usually occurs on the newer versions. After the training is over, many of the students have to go back and try to apply the training and techniques to older versions. Many of the theories still work, but finding where to go to apply them may be different.

Posted: **Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:01 am**

Neville wrote:I only have an old version at home I think it is Photoshop 7 and one other older version 5? In my last office we had CS2 I have been using them from time to time over the last 6 or 7 years and I hate it, it is not intuitive in any sense of the word.

No it is noy at first, I will agree with that...

I know that Photoshop is the benchmark for this type of software from year dot when Apple Macintosh released it and that everyone says it is the best, I also believe that once you are trained on it you will be sold on it.

I have been involved in digital enhancement software usage for the last 20yrs using 5 different software packages and Photoshop is by far the hardest to master. It is designed firstly as an artistic package, to remove and add pixels at will (rub out ridges or draw them in) and in more recent years has had add-ons to make it a pseudo forensic package, but it was never designed originally for this purpose. Paintshop Pro of cause does not even pretend to be.

Yes, sure, it hails from a graphic design and art background but exactly that was the great proving ground and therefore all the time and money could go into R&D making it the awesome tool it is today!! If this had to be developed in a forensic community it would probably be on par with others like the v++ and similar...

Also, drawing ridge detail in AND making it look real is not that easy...

I think what has happened is that people have come into forensics with a background of using Photoshop or knowing it is the benchmark for commercial work have then naturally adapted it for forensic use. That is fine I guess, I am just saying that there is much easier software to use out there that is often cheaper, or especially designed for forensic use and is often more intuitive.

I also wonder if what has occurred is that Police Photographers have taken on practices used within the commercial world of photography and made that the standards for police work. Other forensic areas of policing have then taken on these practices as a normal police function.

I must admit we have had this argument here in NZ with neither side convincing the other so I doubt that it will be any different on this forum. My argument is, do you have the time to train all the staff on this software when other options require little or no training.

To me there is no argument really...we HAVE to take the best tools, know them inside out and use whatever suits the discipline, know what doesn't and explore the boundaries between these opposites. I don't think it is a matter of shoe-horning our methodologies into anything they are not, be it science, graphic art, photography, proper lighting of a crime scene photo or latent print or whatever the scene calls for.

I am fortunate to have been a LPE since 1991 and I have known the discipline since before the information age and I really think we should not see every new thing as a threat of any nature but explore it and use it, adapt it or cast it aside if it yields no benefits.

We might choose not to but our opposition definitely will.

As for which version is the best, it must always be the latest, Adobe does not employ all those people writing software updates just for the fun of it. You usually just have to upgrade the processing power of the computers to cope. But then Steve would have far more idea on that than I would.

Posted: **Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:13 pm**

As everyone knows, I started using Photoshop with latent prints in 1992 (to the best of my knowledge there weren't more than a handful of us attempting to figure out how to use Photoshop for this type of thing back then). Some people were using the Crimcon system, and others were using Image Pro Plus - but even those users were very, very few. There have been several releases that have made significant improvement over the years, but I'm not sure that translates to the most recent being the "best" version.

One great added improvement in recent years is Smart Objects and Smart Filters, enabling non-destructive, re-editable use of filters. Another is the Image Stack mode in the extended versions, which provides the ability to apply math to a stack of images, which is excellent for noise reduction. The canvas rotate tool for non-destructive, temporary image rotation is great. Movie support in CS4 is a big help for video analysis. But, we've also lost a couple of key tools with CS4 and CS5 - LayerComps to PDF is gone (and there is no convenient substitute for this excellent tool for creating court charts), and ContactSheet no longer is included in PS (although it, or better scripts, can be loaded).

A piece of good news is that Adobe now has an employee dedicated to forensics. John Penn II worked as a Photoshop software engineer for ten or twelve years, but he now is working full-time as some sort of liaison between Adobe and the forensic community. My hope is that he will bring information from Adobe that will be helpful to us, and bring our feature requests to Adobe with a stronger voice than we've had previously. I'll mention this thread to him and see if he can stop by to say hello.

The points about training are valid - but that's easy for me to say, since that's a large part of my business. However, there is a lot of free training available. You can download the free Adobe Media Player and get access to tons of free training videos. Then, there's www.lynda.com which has tons of paid video tutorials, but also a handful of free stuff. Sure, these aren't forensic specific content, but the price is right and watching them will make you more familiar with Photoshop. My book, "Photoshop CS3 for Forensic Professionals" is just as valid for both earlier versions and more recent versions (pardon the plug). And, Jim Hoerricks has a book on using Photoshop for Forensics also.

Posted: **Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:50 pm**

Adobe also has their own videos that you can watch at http://tv.adobe.com/

You can also search for adobe podcasts in iTunes and then download them. Search for podcasts about smart objects and smart filters along with adjustment layers, etc... They aren't usually specific to forensics, but you can often come up with techniques that can be applied - and download them to take with on flights or listen to while working (if you're allowed).

Posted: **Tue Aug 31, 2010 7:21 pm**

Watch Photoshop videos while flying Steve?! I'm usually trying to talk to the woman sitting next to me! You need to change your priorities.

Posted: **Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:06 pm**

Hi Guys

I am so pleased I put my last post in as the links given may help me use PS at home. Thanks great stuff.

As for what requires no training, Paintshop Pro, I used it from day one with no training and the office I am in now has been using it for under 6 months without asking another question since I showed them the basics, took less than 20 minutes. Very easy to use and fast, just make sure you keep the original for court!

Previous experience in V++ since the first version was made, thru to about 6yrs ago. I had a quick look at Image Pro Plus, which was very easy to use but expensive at that time and the free on the net Irfanview.

What I like about Paintshop Pro is that when I get back to the office with say 30 photos I can bulk process each photo reduce them all to .2mb then 'one step photo fix' them all, then rotate them as require, it takes about 10seconds per photo or less, so in 5 minutes it is all done. Finally I attach them to their online files, the biggest hassle is getting them saved into seperate folders and then attaching them to the files.

Posted: **Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:23 am**

Neville - I'm sure that you can do a lot with Paintshop Pro quickly and easily after 20 minutes of training (which you for some reason don't call training). After twenty minutes of training with Photoshop, you can also do a lot quickly and easily.

But, regardless of which program you use, without training, are you sure that you are using the program properly, making the proper types of adjustments, not doing anything that changes the content of your image, getting the most from your marginal quality prints, etc.?

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Photoshop users...which version?

Photoshop users...which version?

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Re: Photoshop users...which version?

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Re: Photoshop users...which version?

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Re: Photoshop users...which version?

Re: Photoshop users...which version?

Re: Photoshop users...which version?

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