CLPEX Chat Board

Would anyone happen to know if a current list of the different point standards different countries use to arrive at a conclusion exists?

I am aware that the United States, England, Wales, and North Ireland do not have a point standard.

Could some of the people on this board tell me if the county they live in has a point standard, and what that point standard is?

Thanks,
Michele
michele.triplett@kingcounty.gov

Australia does not have a point standard and have not since about 2000.

Hope this helps.

Cameron

Hi Michelle,

There is some information about the point criterion in other countries publish in "Fingerprints and Other Ridge Skin Impressions" by Champod, Lennard, Margot and Stoilovic on page 28.
Unfortunate one of the nice website with info about point standards is not working anymore. "A neat site by Hans van den Nieuwendijk from Holland: http://www.fingerprints.tk".

Most of the European countries still have a minimum point standard of 12 for a positive identification derived from the consideration of Locard's first rule. That does not mean they are limited to not make an ID on less then 12 points. We could and it was allow to use bayesian model for conclusions but most of the time was not needed, since all crime scene investigators were the people who has to analyzed the prints and were trained to do in the same way all over the country. When you go at the scene you know what you are looking for. It's a huge advantage and more efficient.

In Romania, where I use to work we used edgescopy and poroscopy (level 3) as an additional expertise to make ID on less then 12. I suppose every other country do this type of expertise. It was very rare since most of the latents collected from the scene were dust prints. We had to be able to mark the similarities between the pores and shape of ridge. That involved less quantity of RD with a high level of clarity of RD. The known impressions were collected in a special way to be able to record the level 3.

Here is a data from the book:
Italy: 16
Germany, Sweden, Holland, Switzerland: 8-12
UK (before 2001): 16
South Africa, Belgium, Finland, France, Israel, Ireland, Greece, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovenia, Spain, Turkey, Japan, South American Countries : 12

I know as well couple of these Countries switch recently to the US model with no minimum standards points.
As well I know from the examiners that TAIWAN, CHINA, BULGARIA, still have 12 points.

In my opinion, the countries with minimum point required, did not yet unified Level 3 (Edgeoscopy and Poroscopy) with the Level I and II in a single expertise.

Ioan

From the archived version of fingerprints.tk

Afghanistan is using 12 points, most likely assimilated from Europol training. I have not seen the official documentation.
Interesting: If you double the minutiae the unique (level two) spatial relationships increase by over 4x. By unique I mean not counting the same link more than once.

Thus:
Minutiae/Unique Relationships/Ratio
3/3/1:1
4/6/1:1.5
8/28/1:3.625
16/120/1:7.5
32/496/1:15.5
Add in the level 3 and the layer of information becomes very rich.
12 minutiae happens to be 66. An arbitrary threshold for sure.

Craig,

I was told that Afghanistan experts only use a 12 point standard if they have a core or a delta, without a core or a delta present they need 16 points. Have you heard this?

All I see in action is a 12 point threshold. However, the protocols are still being developed. We struggle to cover the basics.

In the early or mid 1980s, I worked with an Afghanistani fingerprint expert. He had been a police captain in Kabul and had fled across the border into Pakistan as the Russians were invading Afghanistan from the other direction. His father and uncle were both members of parliament and he felt his life was in danger by virtue of his political connections (which were probably responsible for his rank of captain, which he had held for a decade as their fingerprint expert).

He called me one Saturday morning to rush in and verify and identification. The detective was impatiently waiting for the ident so he could arrest the suspect. I ran in to the ID office where our Afghanistani fingerprint expert had two prints on the comparitor. On the left was a beautiful, clear, unsmudged latent with a dozen points marked in grease pencil on the comparitor screen. The latent print was a left slope loop with a ridge count of six. On the right hand side of the screen was the inked print with a dozen points marked. It was a sixteen count left slope loop. I was shocked and pointed out to him those could not possibly be ident. He argued that he had marked the requisite twelve points, so the pattern didn't matter. Twelve points makes it absolute.

We terminated him the next week. A few years later, I responded to the scene of an apartment burglary. While I was processing the scene, our old Afghanistani friend showed up in a rent-a-cop uniform, complete with badge and gun. That frightened me. Would he be as fast to pull the trigger on his weapon as he had been to make an identification on "twelve points?" And I always wondered how many identifications he had made during his decade as a fingerprint expert in Kabul that had resulted in beheadings, hands being chopped off, etc.

That last story tells it all.

I wonder if you were to introduce a 12 point rule, some administrators would be inclined to lower the examiner standards to balance the act... to save money. Highly trained examiners are not only of short supply they are expensive. It reminds me of a cartoon where one person did not qualify for the "think tank" but did qualify for the "guess tank". A 12 point guess tank, I think.

Overall, I "think" we are making some good progress in fine-tuning our science. This type of venue really helps. I thank Kasey for providing this forum.

Thanks Kasey!

Hi Ioan
I think the book must be 10 to 20 years out of date.

Hi Boyd
When was that list published?

November 2004 is when it first shows up.

And you are welcome for the forum. Of course, if I hadn't done it, I'm sure one of you dilligent posters would have set another one up by now. Thanks for all the participation - YOU GUYS are the ones that make the forum great.

Pat stated

And I always wondered how many identifications he had made during his decade as a fingerprint expert in Kabul that had resulted in beheadings, hands being chopped off, etc.

Well, having been to their forensic facility in Kabul, I am surprised if any result came out of the lab. It was something of a time warp regarding equipment and/or the lack of it. It looked pre war - second world war!!
I spoke with the AFG Colonel OIC as there was some money available to equip and asked him for the item that was his main priority for any discipline in his lab. His response was a printer as they had none. Not a camera to replace the current broken one, not a CA chamber to replace the Russian unit that you injected the CA via a syringe, not an environmental chamber, magnifier etc., etc.
Now I am in the same boat, "in the wilds" and no printer. I have to laugh as I now know how he feels. At times we all still need a printer & paper.

Apropos of this query, I am looking for reported appellate decisions where a court has affirmed a conviction of a defendant with a fingerprint match of less than eight points. (There's one california case where the local police found 8 points and defendant admitted the print was his.)

Anyone have cites?

Lisa,

I've recently been surprised to see agencies that note and/or report the number of L2 Detail used. I wonder why this is done?

If we say that there is no number needed (because we don't make ID's simply on the number of characteristics but also on the clarity and rarity of the features) then why is the number of characteristics being reported or listed in the notes?

I wonder if agencies or practitioners feel that listing that an ID had 15 points gives more weight to the conclusion? From my own experience, I think that the number of points is irrelevant if those points are highly subjective.

If anyone works for an agency that does this (or even if it's not required but you note it for your own reference), can you tell me why you note this information? If it's a QA measure, what criteria is there for additional QA measures (is there extra verification below 10 points)? What if the criteria were 10 points before extra QA measures are implemented (using 10 just as an example), what if 6 points are very clear and 4 aren't? Wouldn't staff try to come up with additional characteristics just to meet the number required where extra QA measures aren't needed?