Points listed on a worksheet
-
cpatti
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:42 am
Points listed on a worksheet
My department is currently updating our latent lift worksheets, and there is a debate in the office whether the number of points on an identification (individualization) should be listed on the worksheet or if this is no longer needed. Any input would be appreciated.
-
josher89
- Posts: 509
- Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:32 pm
- Location: NE USA
Re: Points listed on a worksheet
cpatti,
While I don't see a huge issue with having a check box indicating '<12' or '>12' (insert another number here other than 12) I think the goal is to get away from point counting in general. If your worksheet includes points, than does it also include other characteristics that can be used for identification? Pores, ridge shape and morphology, open fields, etc? If you are going to include something like points, you should also probably include all the things that can be used for comparison. We don't have that on our worksheets simply because we don't want others to be fixated on the point counting issues.
Now, if you are strictly speaking about latent print lift worksheets and the numbers of points you see in a latent, that still doesn't necessarily mean that is the only thing you would use (hopefully, anyway) for comparing but might be used as a threshold for those collecting the latents. For example, if one can only see four or more points, keep it. If one sees less than four but with some significant feature, keep it. If less than four and no significant feature, not suitable. I don't know what you would use but bottom line is, I don't always think keeping track of the number of points is a good thing.
While I don't see a huge issue with having a check box indicating '<12' or '>12' (insert another number here other than 12) I think the goal is to get away from point counting in general. If your worksheet includes points, than does it also include other characteristics that can be used for identification? Pores, ridge shape and morphology, open fields, etc? If you are going to include something like points, you should also probably include all the things that can be used for comparison. We don't have that on our worksheets simply because we don't want others to be fixated on the point counting issues.
Now, if you are strictly speaking about latent print lift worksheets and the numbers of points you see in a latent, that still doesn't necessarily mean that is the only thing you would use (hopefully, anyway) for comparing but might be used as a threshold for those collecting the latents. For example, if one can only see four or more points, keep it. If one sees less than four but with some significant feature, keep it. If less than four and no significant feature, not suitable. I don't know what you would use but bottom line is, I don't always think keeping track of the number of points is a good thing.
"...he wrapped himself in quotations—as a beggar would enfold himself in the purple of emperors." - R. Kipling, 1893
-
R J Hillman
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 3:00 pm
- Location: Mesa, Arizona
- Contact:
Re: Points listed on a worksheet
Why is everyone so AFRAID to write down what they see.
If you see 2 level one characteristics when you are looking at a latent…..write it down.
If you see 10 level two characteristics when you are looking at a latent……write it down.
If you see 3 level three characteristics when you are looking at a latent…….write it down.
How can we ever explain to our peers….our supporters…our detractors…the courts…the juries, if we are not willing to write down what we see and what we used to draw a conclusion.
Josher89….I am not picking on you but I disagree.
“We don't have that on our worksheets simply because we don't want others to be fixated on the point counting issues.”
We have no control over how other people wish to interpret our data. If we followed this example with everything we did, we would have no documentation on anything we do!!!
……Wait…That is the current problem…Our community is AFRAID to document what we see because we (Examiners) don’t want to be challenged.
The best way to defend what we do is to document….document…document….what we do, what we think AND what we see…all of it. Document the truth, good and bad, that is our job and that is the best way to defend what we do.
Ok..I’m done preaching now and will jump off my soap box
Everyone have a great day and be safe
Rich Hillman
P.S. If you are just going to pick on my spelling and grammar, don’t bother. My co-workers will take care of that.
If you see 2 level one characteristics when you are looking at a latent…..write it down.
If you see 10 level two characteristics when you are looking at a latent……write it down.
If you see 3 level three characteristics when you are looking at a latent…….write it down.
How can we ever explain to our peers….our supporters…our detractors…the courts…the juries, if we are not willing to write down what we see and what we used to draw a conclusion.
Josher89….I am not picking on you but I disagree.
“We don't have that on our worksheets simply because we don't want others to be fixated on the point counting issues.”
We have no control over how other people wish to interpret our data. If we followed this example with everything we did, we would have no documentation on anything we do!!!
……Wait…That is the current problem…Our community is AFRAID to document what we see because we (Examiners) don’t want to be challenged.
The best way to defend what we do is to document….document…document….what we do, what we think AND what we see…all of it. Document the truth, good and bad, that is our job and that is the best way to defend what we do.
Ok..I’m done preaching now and will jump off my soap box
Everyone have a great day and be safe
Rich Hillman
P.S. If you are just going to pick on my spelling and grammar, don’t bother. My co-workers will take care of that.
Rich Hillman
-
SConner
- Posts: 145
- Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 11:06 am
Re: Points listed on a worksheet
R J Hillman wrote:P.S. If you are just going to pick on my spelling and grammar, don’t bother. My co-workers will take care of that.
Wonder if I know one of them? j/k j/k........ -
josher89
- Posts: 509
- Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:32 pm
- Location: NE USA
Re: Points listed on a worksheet
Rich,
I just want to first say that you have a great looking lab; my coworker used it to mix us some chemicals for a workshop she was teaching at the IAI conference and she couldn't stop talking about it.
Second, I don't think I'm afraid to list what I see, I just don't think it's a good idea to ONLY list points. I don't know what the worksheet looks like that cpatti is revamping; I just think that if you are including the number of points, one should also include the other things I mentioned. Only point listing can be an issue. What if someone was conducting a tech review and found 12 when the initial examiner found 10? Would that make the ID wrong? No, but there would be a discrapancy so is it better to have them or not (either way, it could cause potential issues in court that aren't necessary).
Don't get me wrong; I'm not afraid (nor should anyone be) to count points. We'd be lying if we said we didn't. But, it shouldn't be the only thing we do nor the only thing we document. When describing identifications, it has to be clear and obvious to another competent examiner. That might mean starting in one area, counting over six ridges to a bifurcation, then counting over three more to an enclosure, etc. We are counting there but not just the points; we are counting the intervening ridges, making note of open fields, ridge characteristics, whatever. These are all things that need to be documented.
Not trying to beat a dead horse but if you only count points you are doing it wrong. If you include the number of points, you need to include other things.
I just want to first say that you have a great looking lab; my coworker used it to mix us some chemicals for a workshop she was teaching at the IAI conference and she couldn't stop talking about it.
Second, I don't think I'm afraid to list what I see, I just don't think it's a good idea to ONLY list points. I don't know what the worksheet looks like that cpatti is revamping; I just think that if you are including the number of points, one should also include the other things I mentioned. Only point listing can be an issue. What if someone was conducting a tech review and found 12 when the initial examiner found 10? Would that make the ID wrong? No, but there would be a discrapancy so is it better to have them or not (either way, it could cause potential issues in court that aren't necessary).
Don't get me wrong; I'm not afraid (nor should anyone be) to count points. We'd be lying if we said we didn't. But, it shouldn't be the only thing we do nor the only thing we document. When describing identifications, it has to be clear and obvious to another competent examiner. That might mean starting in one area, counting over six ridges to a bifurcation, then counting over three more to an enclosure, etc. We are counting there but not just the points; we are counting the intervening ridges, making note of open fields, ridge characteristics, whatever. These are all things that need to be documented.
Not trying to beat a dead horse but if you only count points you are doing it wrong. If you include the number of points, you need to include other things.
"...he wrapped himself in quotations—as a beggar would enfold himself in the purple of emperors." - R. Kipling, 1893
-
Neville
- Posts: 307
- Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2006 11:44 am
- Location: NEW ZEALAND
Re: Points listed on a worksheet
Just wondering what would you write down on the job sheet if there was in excess of say 30 points, would you really add them all up and write it on the job sheet? I am thinking of a good clear palm or foot print, it just seems redundant to me.
-
R J Hillman
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 3:00 pm
- Location: Mesa, Arizona
- Contact:
Re: Points listed on a worksheet
Josher
Thank you for your kind words about our lab. In the 23 years with this agency, this is third lab I have been in and I have to say that they did it right this time. We are very proud of our lab and it was a great feeling when we were all invited to be involved with its planning right from the beginning.
OK..I have to step back and say that I agree with you that there needs to be more than just level two detail noted on a worksheet / notes. Your worksheet / notes should paint a verbal picture of what you are looking at and what you used to make a conclusion.
Neville:
I think you should be documenting what you see and use. I am not saying that you have to count and record every detail, that would not be practical or a smart use of you time. But if you went through 30 level two details before you made made a conclusion, then you should be documenting that you went to 30 before you made a decision. I know that we use more than just level 2 detail, but if you use it to make a conclusion, you need to be documenting it. If you don't write down what you used, how does the next expert that looks at your work know what you looked at. I know from first hand experience in our lab that when it comes to recording the number of detail (Whatever the level) people are very scared to document that.
I would like to be able to read a persons worksheet/notes and be able to understand what they were looking at and how much information they used to make a conclusion before I ever see the print. (This statement should draw out some comments)
Depending on what conclusions you make about a chunk of ridge detail on a lift card, your conclusion could be severly limiting someones freedom. Their freedom...your career...your reputation within this community and in the courts.....your criminal and civil liabilitys as an expert.....
I don't know about you, but I want to see better documentation.
Everyone have a great weekend and jump on in here and give us your opinion.
Thank you for your kind words about our lab. In the 23 years with this agency, this is third lab I have been in and I have to say that they did it right this time. We are very proud of our lab and it was a great feeling when we were all invited to be involved with its planning right from the beginning.
OK..I have to step back and say that I agree with you that there needs to be more than just level two detail noted on a worksheet / notes. Your worksheet / notes should paint a verbal picture of what you are looking at and what you used to make a conclusion.
Neville:
I think you should be documenting what you see and use. I am not saying that you have to count and record every detail, that would not be practical or a smart use of you time. But if you went through 30 level two details before you made made a conclusion, then you should be documenting that you went to 30 before you made a decision. I know that we use more than just level 2 detail, but if you use it to make a conclusion, you need to be documenting it. If you don't write down what you used, how does the next expert that looks at your work know what you looked at. I know from first hand experience in our lab that when it comes to recording the number of detail (Whatever the level) people are very scared to document that.
I would like to be able to read a persons worksheet/notes and be able to understand what they were looking at and how much information they used to make a conclusion before I ever see the print. (This statement should draw out some comments)
Depending on what conclusions you make about a chunk of ridge detail on a lift card, your conclusion could be severly limiting someones freedom. Their freedom...your career...your reputation within this community and in the courts.....your criminal and civil liabilitys as an expert.....
I don't know about you, but I want to see better documentation.
Everyone have a great weekend and jump on in here and give us your opinion.
Rich Hillman
-
Neville
- Posts: 307
- Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2006 11:44 am
- Location: NEW ZEALAND
Re: Points listed on a worksheet
Hi Rich your second sentence answered the question.
I think rather than reading through loads of statements I would prefer to see an unmarked photo to make my own decision after which I would look at the marked up photo. But then I was never the best at english comprehension I am more a picture says a thousand words type.
I think rather than reading through loads of statements I would prefer to see an unmarked photo to make my own decision after which I would look at the marked up photo. But then I was never the best at english comprehension I am more a picture says a thousand words type.
-
PCC
- Posts: 47
- Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 4:26 pm
- Location: california
Re: Points listed on a worksheet
Here is my agency's challenge... We have @ 15 CSI employees, including supervisors, for @ 400,000 population. So far we have had @45 homicide/officer involved shootings this year, not to mention multiple nightly shootings that miss their targets. Each CSI is responsible for responding to all person crimes/city liability issues/or any case that photography or a special expertise is needed (blood/shoe track evidence/court identifcations or autopsies). At homicides/OIS we not only photograph and collect the evidence but take measurements and complete diagrams. We average @5-6 field calls per CSI per night, many require evidence collection, processing and booking. In addition to responding to calls, there are latent developing requests submitted by field officers that we do, many involving chemical developement of latent prints. We enter our prints into the AFIS systems, and we do the comparisons. Often we will have a detective submit a request to compare latents in all property crime cases in a certain area to a subject that has similar priors...kinda a fishing expedition. Field officers submit @ 150 latent cases a month.
So, just how do we fit all this in our normal shift schedule with overtime extremely limited? That is our challenge. To do so we just CANT do everything. Since responding to field calls is a priority taking the time to make notes on everything we see when doing a comparison is one of the things we just dont do. We do apply the ACE-V methodology to the best of our abilites.
Wish we could do everything to peer review, but we just can't. How many others out there are in our boat?
So, just how do we fit all this in our normal shift schedule with overtime extremely limited? That is our challenge. To do so we just CANT do everything. Since responding to field calls is a priority taking the time to make notes on everything we see when doing a comparison is one of the things we just dont do. We do apply the ACE-V methodology to the best of our abilites.
Wish we could do everything to peer review, but we just can't. How many others out there are in our boat?
-
Neville
- Posts: 307
- Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2006 11:44 am
- Location: NEW ZEALAND
Re: Points listed on a worksheet
Hi Rich
I am not saying you are wrong I just do not see the need and then you must start getting into the argument of Bias.
Here we have PCC in the real world of Policing; you don't really expect him to get into writing a page of what he sees so that the next person sees what he sees. That is OK in a teaching situation but not an everyday thing. Doting on a photo gives you more than enough info and is a very quick way of getting the same result I would have thought, plus you can draw in lines of movement and scares. I don't think it's that people are afraid, it's a time thing.
PCC
Keep up the great work you are doing, hope you can get some more staff.
cpatti
I would stay clear of point counting myself, though having said that I always did, but to actually write down the number of points is going against every thing taught now, isn't it?
I am not saying you are wrong I just do not see the need and then you must start getting into the argument of Bias.
Here we have PCC in the real world of Policing; you don't really expect him to get into writing a page of what he sees so that the next person sees what he sees. That is OK in a teaching situation but not an everyday thing. Doting on a photo gives you more than enough info and is a very quick way of getting the same result I would have thought, plus you can draw in lines of movement and scares. I don't think it's that people are afraid, it's a time thing.
PCC
Keep up the great work you are doing, hope you can get some more staff.
cpatti
I would stay clear of point counting myself, though having said that I always did, but to actually write down the number of points is going against every thing taught now, isn't it?