Regina v. Smith (2011)

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Taggart
Posts: 599
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:33 am

Re: Regina v. Smith (2011)

Post by Taggart »

62. There is plainly a need for the points that have arisen in this case to be the subject of wider examination. We have been told that an enquiry by the Rt Hon Sir Anthony Campbell into the case of HM Advocate v McKie known as the Scottish Fingerprint Enquiry has heard extensive evidence in relation to fingerprint evidence in Scotland. It is not for us to comment more than we have done at paragraph 61 in relation to the practices that have come to our attention in this appeal. In our view, however, there is a real need for the ACPO, the Forensic Science Regulator and the recently established Fingerprint Quality Standards Specialist Group to examine as expeditiously as possible the issues we have identified, to assess the position and to ensure that there are common quality standards enforced through a robust and accountable system.
The above is taken from the Appeal findings dated 4 May 2011.

This case is raising some serious, serious issues. The main one, like the McKie case is that a fingerprint cannot remain disputed. Even SCRO admitted this.

Some questions and I really would appreciate some clarity.

(1) What exactly happened between May 2011 and the Trial on October 2012, a gap of some 17 months?
(2) What exactly did ACPO, the Forensic Science Regulator and the Fingerprint Quality Standards Specialist Group do in light of this Appeal finding?
(3) Given the Appeal finding reported this needed to be done as a matter of urgency (4 May 2011) when did this happen, and when did it conclude if it has?
(4) Where are the reports/findings of those bodies as a result of this Appeal Finding?
(5) Why did the Crown allow the fingerprint evidence to be used in the trial, given somewhere down the line the print in question will need to be reviewed and a definitive position given on it? If it comes back the print is indeed a misidentification, the case will be clearly appealed based on that evidence alone, with the possibility of the conviction being quashed for a second time. I believe there was other compelling evidence so why introduce evidence that ultimately could damage any conviction?
(6) What is the current official position of the fingerprint in the Smith Case? Disputed?
(7) Since the Trial who has been brought in to resolve the issue?
Tazman
Posts: 244
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 7:25 am

Re: Regina v. Smith (2011)

Post by Tazman »

Taggart wrote:. . . like the McKie case . . . a fingerprint cannot remain disputed. Even SCRO admitted this.

What exactly happened between May 2011 and the Trial on October 2012, a gap of some 17 months?
Rip Van Winkle is alive and well and sound asleep in the woods. He sleeps through war, you know, and stumbles out into view twenty years later, incredulous at the changes that occurred while he slept.

Sleep peacefully, Rip.
"Man was born free, but he is everywhere in chains." -- Jean-Jacques Rousseau
Taggart
Posts: 599
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:33 am

Re: Regina v. Smith (2011)

Post by Taggart »

……and stumbles out into view twenty years later
I am wondering if that stumble was caused by all the things that got swept under the carpet?
Taggart
Posts: 599
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:33 am

Re: Regina v. Smith (2011)

Post by Taggart »

(1) What exactly happened between May 2011 and the Trial on October 2012, a gap of some 17 months?
(2) What exactly did ACPO, the Forensic Science Regulator and the Fingerprint Quality Standards Specialist Group do in light of this Appeal finding?....
Since the publication of the Appeal Findings on 4 May 2011 I have found two sets of minutes for the Fingerprint Quality Standards Specialist Group.

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publicatio ... iew=Binary

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publicatio ... iew=Binary

Remarkably (or maybe not) there is not a single mention of the Smith case. If I go back to what the Appeal finding said:
…There is plainly a need for the points that have arisen in this case to be the subject of wider examination. …….. In our view, however, there is a real need for the ACPO, the Forensic Science Regulator and the recently established Fingerprint Quality Standards Specialist Group to examine as expeditiously as possible the issues we have identified, to assess the position and to ensure that there are common quality standards enforced through a robust and accountable system….
You might notice the Forensic Regulator sits on this Group.
I can only imagine they are doing all their work in private, without being minuted.

This must also be the case with ACPO (Association of Chief Police Officers) who have now met on at least 13 occasions (minuted), but again miraculously without any mention of the Appeal Findings!

http://www.acpo.police.uk/About/MeetingMinutes.aspx

So either, both ACPO and the Fingerprint Quality Standards Specialist Group did/are doing there work without any need to minute them at their meetings, or perhaps as happened in Scotland for so long are been ignored?
alangore
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:25 am

Re: Regina v. Smith (2011)

Post by alangore »

The final paragraphs (63 to 89) of the Appeal court judgement have now been published and can be read at http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2011/1296.html.
ag
g.
Posts: 247
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 1:27 pm
Location: St. Paul, MN

Re: Regina v. Smith (2011)

Post by g. »

The discussions re: the judges' views of the fingerprint evidence in this case are fascinating. But to truly appreciate the complexity of the case, I'd like to see
the images. Now that the case has been decided, is it possible (officially or "unofficially") to see the images? I'd be happy to discuss off-line.
Otherwise, the discussions about the experts' qualifications, years of experience, and usual distractors are pointless... Anyway, if you can share the images,
contact me. I'm willing to trade. =)

g.

glenn@eliteforensicservices.com
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