Now This Is Real Science

[SThurman]

From the IAI Web Site.

"The International Association for Identification is a professional membership organization comprised of individuals worldwide who work in the field of forensic identification. With over 6,500 members from 77 countries, the IAI remains the oldest and largest forensic science/identification association in the world."


Yet this is in their job listings,

"RS & A is a faith based company which makes all business and personnel decisions under the guidance of God's Holy Word."

"In our headquarters facility lobby there is a sign which reads "God First, Family Second, Business Third" and this is how we run the business."

$100 says. Only Christians Need Apply.

[g.]

SThurman,

I should probably stay out of this, but I can't resist since I've worked with Ron for a number of years now.

While I appreciate a certain sense of ironic humor in your post, let me share a few of my experiences with you:
-In the last 6 years I have worked with Ron and his company on various projects and committees, while Ron makes no bones about hiding his faith and beliefs, he never once asked me mine, nor was it ever a point of discussion around Science or Training or Education. Your beliefs are not requirements to do work for RS&A.
-I believe his company provides excellent training to any scientist who registers (and pays the tuition costs) regardless of faith, belief, creed, etc. Nor do I recall RS&A beliefs being thrust upon anyone any more than watching an NFL sporting event or Academy Awards Ceremony (where people occasionally refer to their beliefs). And I don't think those events are diminished in their sporting or artistic nature by such references.
-Ron and his company have donated a lot of free tuition waivers, money, swag bags, and other things, not to mention time and expertise to the IAI and members of the IAI. If the price is hearing a 'praise this or that'....meh...do we really care? I don't. I'm sure if you give an IAI talk and want to thank Cthulhu at the end, no one will really care...as long as the talk was good and informative. =)

An interesting post, made me chuckle, but also made me want to defend a good friend, good people, and a good company.

(I teach a class for RS&A but I'm not employed by RS&A, so as Ron says, "I don't have a dog in this hunt". These are just my personal views.)

[kevin]

Sthurman - just about everyone in the fingerprint business knows Ron and will probably second Glenn's comments 100%. i think you have got the wrong idea about Ron and his company...

[Tazman]

$100 says. Only Christians Need Apply.

I would be interested if a non-Christian who works for Ron (I imagine there are some who in their hearts are not true Christians) tries to collect your bet. I agree with Glen that Ron would never consider religion when contracting with an instructor. Ron's only interest would be whether the instructor or contractor is good at what he/she does.

That said, I must add a note of ambivalence. I cannot help but wonder whether the IAI would allow an official representative to use the Star of David, a crescent moon, or a swastika (as used by the Navajo Indians) as a symbol. If not, why allow a Christian symbol on official IAI mailings offering training?

[g.]

Great idea Tazman and intriguing social science experiment:

Let's form an LLC of Jewish examiners called "Kosher Forensics" and see if we can get sponsors and cases to review. I can see the company motto already:

"If ain't kosher, we''ll know!"

But I'll bet that as long as the product was quality services and training...no one would really care.

g.

[Bill Schade]

"If ain't kosher, we''ll know!"

Now Thats Funny!

[L.J.Steele]

Anyone remember Hebrew Franks old ad:

The Gov't says we can use non-beef byproducts. We don't.
The Gov't says we can use meat byproducts. We can't.
"We're Kosher and we have to answer to a higher authority"

[Alan C]

Personally, I wouldn't be that up front about my faith on a business web site or have a logo like RS&A's, but please note that it doesn't say they make scientific decisions "based on God's Holy Word." If they did that I'd be really worried!

[Tazman]

But I'll bet that as long as the product was quality services and training...no one would really care.

I don't disagree with you at all, Glen. The religion of an instructor should be irrelevant to the training he or she administers. Whether a person is a "scientist" and teaches a good class is independent of religion.

From the IAI Web Site.

"The International Association for Identification is a professional membership organization comprised of individuals worldwide who work in the field of forensic identification. With over 6,500 members from 77 countries, the IAI remains the oldest and largest forensic science/identification association in the world."

My point was that I agree with SThurman on this point. If the IAI represents 77 countries, then it should not allow any religious symbol on its mailouts.

I disagree with SThurman in that, if Ron wants to advertise a job opportunity the way he did, that is his business. I have no problem whatsoever with Ron's job ad on the IAI website.

I have a problem with ANY religious symbol on a mailout that purports to be official mail from the IAI. And we all get those postcards with the fish on them.

No fish, no crosses, no star of David, no swastika. The IAI is supposed to represent true science, not any religion.

[g.]

Tazman,

Ah. OK. I think I see the finer distinction of your point. You object to the IAI material having the company LOGO on it because the logo IS a religious symbol. Otherwise, if it just said "RS&A" you'd be fine. Fair summary?

g.

[Tazman]

Exactly. Ron Smith & Associates, as a private business, should be free to use whatever symbol they want and should be free to hire whomever they want as instructors or contractors. I have attended training and found it to be top notch. I have no qualms whatsoever about either the quality of the training or the question of whether religion is mixed in the training -- it was NOT.

My discomfort is when the IAI gives license to Ron Smith & Associates as the official trainer for the IAI and allows the religious symbol to be used in conjunction with the IAI symbol. That might lead some members, both American and international, to conclude that the IAI is tacitly endorsing or promoting a religious cause. The IAI should include in its contract with Ron Smith & Associates a stipulation that no religious symbolism should be used in conjunction with the IAI name and symbols.

[Boyd Baumgartner]

$100 says. Only Christians Need Apply.

100 dollars says it's easy to have convictions when you think you're anonymous, isn't it Brian?

If you dislike religion so much, perhaps you should avoid turning science into one.

[Mary M.]

"Religion tells you how to go to heaven. Science tells you how the heavens go."
Science and religion are not inherrently adversarial. Specific religions promote guidelines to ethical decisions which could be used to guide a company in its business dealings and interactions with its clients. Science offers no guidelines in this area. Science uses an objective way of testing alternate and mutually exclusive hypotheses to arrive at answers supported by fact-based observation.
I see the RS&A ad as suggesting they follow certain ethical guidelines to sell the objective scientific services they offer.

[LauraT]

While I hate to continue discussion on this thread, I have to admit that when amusement at my office runs thin, I can often come to this site for a few more chuckles. I really find it funny that there are people worrying about Ron Smith and his company and their religious values but don't see the irony in thinking that the IAI should have a problem with having a Christian symbol on their website. Most members probably know that the IAI claims that the fingerprint in their logo belongs to Sir Francis Galton, the "father of fingerprints." But how many know that another nickname he could be known by might be the "father of eugenics" - that concept he developed that, ala Hitler, supports the superiority of certain groups of people (i.e. white, straight, well-born, etc - just look at history for multiple examples)? How's that for encompassing our international mixing group of forensic professionals?