Spooky

[charlton97]

Richard Case, the Fingerprint Society Webmaster has been researching his family history for over 2 years, not knowing what skeletons he might uncover.

Unbelievably, he has discovered that he is not the only person in his family tree to have been involved in the fingerprint profession.

Whilst researching his maternal line he has discovered a link to none other than Charles Stockley Collins, former head of the fingerprint bureau at New Scotland Yard, and the first person to present fingerprint evidence in a british court of law, as well as presenting the evidence at the Stratton murder trial.

Spooky!!!

[Outsider]

Another case of how you cannot infer anything just because it is rare or unlikely. There are lots of people in prominent positions in the fingerprint world and between them they must have an awful lot of ancestors.

Another recent example, my wife fosters cats awaiting new homes, for a local charity. In a few years of doing this she has taken in 3 pregnant cats and all 3 have needed to be rushed to the vet for emergency caesarean sections, without it they would have died. All the other foster carers for the charity, some have been doing it for over 20 years, have had many pregnant cats to deal with and not one has had an unnatural birth. It would be very tempting to try to infer something from this.
http://www.stevehornsc.pwp.blueyonder.c ... queen2.htm

Here, somebody did make the inference
http://www.badscience.net/?p=392

BTW mother and kittens are all fine
http://www.stevehornsc.pwp.blueyonder.c ... uggles.htm

(Dave, I have got a sneaky suspicion you expected me to pop up on this one – or am I inferring something from too little information?)

[rmcase]

Dave,

It was quite freaky to find the connection... I certainly wasn't looking for somebody fingerprint related. In fact I have found many other distant relatives with Charles' parents in their family trees, but it's only becuase I knew fingerprint history that I was able to fill in the gaps.

He is my first cousin 4 x removed.

I would agree with Steve that nothing can be inferred from it, and that was not the purpose for disclosing the information.

I just thought it was an interesting story, especially as genealogy is very popular at the moment.

Although I have a lot of information on Collins, I am still looking for more on him (as I am with other members of my family tree).

This is a great forum for me to ask whether anyone out there has anything in their own private collections that I could use. So if anyone has anything please let me know

It would be great to know whether anyone else has similar stories of coincidence.

This story originated from:

http://www.fpsociety.org.uk/news/wdytya.html

[charlton97]

Richard, I have a book called The Boys Book of Scotland Yard that has some nice stuff on Collins and the Stratton trial. Be happy to scan you on some bits and pieces??

[Outsider]

I would agree with Steve that nothing can be inferred from it, and that was not the purpose for disclosing the information.

Actually, I do find these connections interesting and remarkable (in the literal sense). It would be interesting to know if there a causal link, maybe genetic, in making a type of employment seem interesting when you are young, or perhaps a family tradition of employment.

Or is it all just chance.

The mathematics are WELL oustide my capabilities.

[rmcase]

Richard, I have a book called The Boys Book of Scotland Yard that has some nice stuff on Collins and the Stratton trial. Be happy to scan you on some bits and pieces??

Dave, sounds great. I have read most fingerprint books with Collins, but I have been looking for more general books.

I am also looking for information on a James Stockley (a 1st cousin of Charles) who reached the rank of Chief Inspector at the Yard. He joined the CID at the time of Jack the Ripper, and played a small role in the inquiry.... his name may also appear in that book.

Actually, I do find these connections interesting and remarkable (in the literal sense). It would be interesting to know if there a causal link, maybe genetic, in making a type of employment seem interesting when you are young, or perhaps a family tradition of employment.

Or is it all just chance.

The mathematics are WELL oustide my capabilities.

I was going to question whether there could be a genetic disposition to a certain career.. but if that was the case I am more likely to have become a miner, ropemaker or boilermaker which seemed to have influenced my more recent generations.

Like you say, the statistics involved are mind boggling... at its simplest level my closest shared anscestors with Collins is my greatx4 grandparents John and Susannah Stockley who was Charles' grandparents. As I would have 31 other sets of greatx4 grandparents the liklihood that I share the same genetic code that would effect something like career choice as Charles is remote.... nevermind, it is a nice thought.

[charlton97]

Try National Archive

MEPO Records of the Metropolitan Police Office
Division within MEPO Records of the Office of the Commissioner and successors
MEPO 21 Metropolitan Police: Records of Police Pensioners
Subseries within MEPO 21 Pension records described at item level and searchable by name
MEPO 21/4 Pension numbers: 1201-1400. Described at item level



Record Summary
Scope and content Retirement from Metropolitan Police: James Stockley
Covering dates 1856-1857
Availability Open Document, Open Description, Normal Closure before FOI Act: 30 years
Held by The National Archives, Kew

[charlton97]

Richard...you only had to ask ;.))) Try Old Bailey on line!!! I always use this site for a bit of fun!!! I am sure Charles will feature heavily too!!

JAMES STOCKLEY, witness name in trial of JAMES RAGAN, Damage to Property > arson, 8th April 1850.

740. JAMES RAGAN , feloniously setting fire to a certain building belonging to Norman M'Leod and others, with intent to injure them; other COUNTS, with intent to injure Joseph Adams. MR. BALLANTINE conducted the Prosecution. RALPH DODD . I am in the employ...
JAMES STOCKLEY, witness name in trial of HENRY SMITH, Violent Theft > robbery; CHARLES SHEARMAN, Violent Theft > robbery; ROSANNA MAYNES, Violent Theft > robbery; CHARLOTTE LYFORD, Violent Theft > robbery, 8th July 1850.

1272. HENRY SMITH, CHARLES SHEARMAN, ROSANNA MAYNES , and CHARLOTTE LYFORD , robbery on Fanny Jones, and stealing 1 box, value 1d., 4 shillings, and 8 sixpences; her property. MR. PARRY conducted the Prosecution. FANNY JONES . I am single—I have no p...
JAMES STOCKLEY, witness name in trial of JOHN COSTELLO, Royal Offences > coining offences; THOMAS WHITE, Royal Offences > coining offences, 16th June 1851.

1268. JOHN COSTELLO and THOMAS WHITE , for a like offence: to which WHITE pleaded GUILTY .* Aged 53.— Confined Twelve Months. MESSRS. BODKIN and ELLIS, JUN., conducted the Prosecution. ANN CLARK . I am bar-maid at the Half-Moon and Seven Stars, Ratcl...
JAMES STOCKLEY, witness name in trial of JAMES WOOD, Royal Offences > coining offences, 13th December 1852.

106. JAMES WOOD was indicted for a like offence. MESSRS. BODKIN and POLAND conducted the Prosecution. HENRY JACOBS . I am a tobacconist, and live at Shad well. On 20th Nov. the prisoner came for half an ounce of tobacco; it came to 1 1/2 d.; he gave me hal...
JAMES STOCKLEY, witness name in trial of HANNAH HEALEY, Theft > pocketpicking, 4th February 1856.

262. HANNAH HEALEY , stealing 1 watch, and 1 guard chain, value 11l., and 5s. 6d. in money; the property of Robert Henry, from his person. MR. LILLEY conducted the Prosecution. ROBERT HENRY . I am examiner of accounts in the East India Docks. On Christmas ...
JAMES STOCKLEY, witness name in trial of JOSEPH SAMUEL LEEK, Deception > fraud, 19th November 1894.

66. JOSEPH SAMUEL LEEK , Unlawfully obtaining from Edward Morgan ?2 10s., and other sums from other persons, by false pretences. MR. ATTENBOROUGH Prosecuted MESSRS. GEOGHEGAN and TURNER Defended. HENRY GEORGE MUSKETT . I am assistant to Mr. Robertson, pawn...
JAMES STOCKLEY, witness name in trial of EDWARD MORGAN, Deception > fraud; FRANCIS MOOR, Deception > fraud, 22nd November 1897.

39. EDWARD MORGAN (38) and FRANCIS MOOR (37) , Unlawfully conspiring with others by false pretences to obtain moneys from various persons with intent to defraud. MESSRS. CHARLES MATHEWS, BODKIN and HEWITT Prosecuted, MESSRS. GEOGHEGAN and HUGHES Defended M...
JAMES STOCKLEY, witness name in trial of DANIEL COLLINS, Violent Theft > robbery; HENRY NORTH, Violent Theft > robbery, 10th January 1898.

121. DANIEL COLLINS (40) and HENRY NORTH (31) , Robbery with violence on Frederick James Weller, and stealing 17s. 9d. his money. MR. SYDENHAM JONES Prosecuted and MR. PURCELL Defended. FREDERICK JAMES WELLER . I am a packer, of 41, Johnston Street, Somers...
JAMES STOCKLEY, witness name in trial of EDMUND THEODORE RATCLIFF, Deception > fraud; CHARLES GEORGE PERRY, Deception > fraud, 24th October 1898.

714. EDMUND THEODORE RATCLIFF (51) and CHARLES GEORGE PERRY (26) , Unlawfully conspiring with William James Rodwell and Frederick William Lewis to obtain by false pretences from Mary Catheart and others various sums, amounting to ?215 9s. 8d., with intent ...
JAMES STOCKLEY, witness name in trial of CHARLES TAPLIN, Deception > forgery; MARK CAMPANA, Deception > forgery, 12th March 1900.

241. CHARLES TAPLIN (41) , Feloniously counterfeiting certain writing, with intent to defraud, and MARK CAMPANA (36) , Uttering the same writing, with a like intent. Second Count, Unlawfully conspiring to cheat and defraud the London and South Western Bank...

JAMES STOCKLEY, witness name in trial of ALFRED PAGET, Deception > fraud; BERNARD ABRAHAMS, Deception > fraud; JOSEPH HAYNES, Deception > fraud; EDWARD BLANCHLAND ECCLES, Deception > fraud, 2nd April 1900.

276. ALFRED PAGET (35), BERNARD ABRAHAMS (35), JOSEPH HAYNES , and EDWARD BLANCHLAND ECCLES , Unlawfully conspiring with Henry Marks, Douglas Benjamin Don Watson, and William Henry Sandbrook, to cause the Secretary of State to grant a certificate of natura...
JAMES STOCKLEY, witness name in trial of ANTHONY JAMES, Deception > fraud; CHARLES EWART DAVIES, Deception > fraud; JOHN CORAM, Deception > fraud, 21st October 1901.

765. ANTHONY JAMES, CHARLES EWART DAVIES and JOHN CORAM, Conspiring to defraud the Secretary of State for War of valuable securities, and to obtain money by false pretences, with intent to defraud. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL, MR. SUTTON, MR. MATHEWS and MR. BOD...
JAMES STOCKLEY, witness name in trial of JOHN DOE, Royal Offences > treason, 30th June 1902.

516. JOHN DOE (38) , Being a person holding office under the King and having in the course of his employment acquired certain information, did corruptly and contrary to his official duty attempt to communicate that information to Richard Sturton and anothe...
JAMES STOCKLEY, witness name in trial of SAMUEL GURNEY MASSEY, Deception > fraud; ALFRED BENNETT HARDING, Deception > fraud, 20th July 1903.

596. SAMUEL GURNEY MASSEY and ALFRED BENNETT HARDING, Unlawfully making, circulating, and publishing certain written statements, knowing them to be false in certain material particulars, they being directors of the London and Suburban Bank, Limited, with i...
JAMES STOCKLEY, witness name in trial of ALBERT VICTOR JACKSON, Deception > fraud; HAROLD PARKER, Deception > fraud, 16th May 1904.

446. ALBERT VICTOR JACKSON (34) and HAROLD PARKER (34) , Unlawfully conspiring to cheat and defraud Thomas Reginald Dickason and such other persons who might purchase tickets in a sweepstake called the Eighteenth Derby Sweepstake. JACKSON PLEADED GUILTY . ...
JAMES STOCKLEY, witness name in trial of EDWARD LONG, Theft > simple larceny (from 1827), 24th July 1905.

613. EDWARD LONG (61) , Stealing ?700, the property of Michael Blake. MR. MUIR and MR. BOYD Prosecuted; MR. HUTTON and MR. FULTON Defended. MICHAEL BLAKE . I am a retired business man, principally dealing in real estate of late years—before I retired...
JAMES STOCKLEY, witness name in trial of EUGENE ALTMANN, Theft > simple larceny (from 1827), 11th December 1905.

98. EUGENE ALTMANN (31), Stealing a case, two rows of pearls, and other jewellery, and ?10 in money, the property of Florence Prinsep. MR. LEYCESTER and MR. SYMONS Prosecuted; MR. SANDS Defended. TIMOTHY GARRY (56 F.) I am accustomed to drawing plans and h...
JAMES STOCKLEY, witness name in trial of EUGENE ALTMANN, Theft > simple larceny (from 1827), 11th December 1905.

98. EUGENE ALTMANN (31), Stealing a case, two rows of pearls, and other jewellery, and ?10 in money, the property of Florence Prinsep. MR. LEYCESTER and MR. SYMONS Prosecuted; MR. SANDS Defended. TIMOTHY GARRY (56 F.) I am accustomed to drawing plans and h...

[charlton97]

JAMES STOCKLEY (Sergeant). I was at Bow Street, and heard Eva Goldring give her evidence—I have been this morning to see her at 4, Brvanstone Mansions, and also saw Dr. Jones. (MR. C. F. GILL submitted that the RECORDER had the power to allow only part of the depositions of Eva Goldring to be read, as the defence had not opportunity to cross examine the witness, and he submitted that the last paragraph of he evidence should be omitted. The RECORDER ruled that he had the discretion to exclude part of the deposition. The deposition was therefore-read, with the exception of the last paragraph.) (Read: "I live at 4, Bryanstone Mansions, Baker Street. In the beginning of November, 1899, I made the acquaintance of a man named Don Watson. He sold me a pair of horses and a carriage. I afterwards met him at Brighton, and I came from Brighton with him to the office of the defendant Abrahams, in Great Marlborough Street, for the purpose of getting a formal receipt for the money I had paid for the carriage and horses. This was towards the end of November. I saw Bernard Abrahams then for the first time, and while I was waiting I also saw Mr. Paget. I had seen him before. I did not speak to him. Watson introduced Abrahams to me. I went to Abrahams' office more than once after that day with Watson, and I saw Paget there on other days. Watson told me that Paget was trying to get naturalised. Watson traded under the name of Vivian Blackwell. I afterwards, about November 24th, went to Paris with Don Watson. Early in December, I think in the first week, I saw Abrahams and Paget together in Paris. I saw them at the Cafe de Paris on a Saturday and a Sunday night. They were together on both occasions. Abrahams joined me and Watson, and we went to the Cafe Americain and the Cafe Maxime. Abrahams said he was staying at the Hotel Ritz, and that Paget was also staying there. He said that Paget had something to do with a company, and was 'doing' somebody, and Watson asked Abrahams how much he was going to get out of it, and suggested that Paget would put Abrahams off with a few hundreds, and Abrahams said, 'Not if I know it.' I made a statement to Inspector Arrow on January 5th last which he took down in writing, and that statement was as nearly as possible correct. I have been ill since then, and my memory has rather failed me since. I did not see Paget in Paris after that Sunday night. I think I saw Abrahams on the next day, Monday; I was with Watson at the time. Abrahams said he might leave that night for London. When I first saw Abrahams at his office in London he said, 'It would be as well for us to go to Paris.' He said Paget had been in Paris, at the Hotel Ritz, and had made a lot of money in Paris, about £40,000; he did not say how, but that he had made it in a few weeks. I know Abrahams said in Paris something not in Paget's praise, to the effect that Paget had not treated him well in the way he spoke to him; but I cannot now remember what he said about Paget. I signed the statement that I made to Inspector Arrow after he had read it over to me.

JAMES STOCKLEY (Detective Sergeant E). The prosecutor and Collins were at the station when I went in about 11.30 p.m. on Sunday, January 2nd—the prosecutor made a statement to me and gave a description of North and two others—in consequence of that description I arrested North in Seven Dials the next day about 12.45 a.m.—he was standing with two other men—I said, "I am going to take you to Bow Street, as I believe you to have been concerned with three others in assaulting and robbing a gentleman in St. Martin's Lane just after eleven last night, for which a man named Collins is in custody"—he said,

JAMES STOCKLEY (Dectective Sergeant). On August 27th I went to 15, Craven Street and saw Moor in a back office—I asked him for Mr. Morgan, he said that he was engaged in the next room—I looked in the front room and saw Morgan; I said, "Are you Mr. Morgan?" he said, "Yes." I told him I was a police-officer and should take them to the police-court on a charge of fraud—Moor said, "The matter can be explained, the thing is worthless." They were taken to the station and Moor said, "I parted with the bonds to Mr. Cobbett." I found at 15, Craven Street a large quantity of these printed documents. Some were ready to put into foolscap envelopes; also a packet of newspaper cuttings refering to the Founders' Company and the Finance Company, a cheque on the Union Bank, three letters for Mr. Hewick, and some typewritten circulars on "How to employ idle money," similar to these—also these respecting the London and North-Western Deferred and Midland Deferred, showing how to make money by them—I also found a cash book, a ledger and two journals; the last entry is 1890—there are no entries in the other book—there was a share certificate book showing that numbers 1 to 10 had been used—they relate to 300 shares each one of which was to Morgan—the counterfoils are not properly filled in—I also found some envelopes addressed and some stamped—I found in the office a bond for 100 dollars and a great many letters which had passed through the post, and a great many of them were to Moor—I think I have read nearly all of them—I found documents against both prisoners in the County Court, and in the High Court proceedings against Morgan, also four letter-books, and a letter signed H. Russell Evans—200 copies of the Finance Company and two accounts of a firm of stockbrokers—I have never seen Captain Lund—I have seen Mr. G. W. Lund—I have not seen Mr. H. Russell Evans, I have tried to see him, I have not got a warrant for bis arrest.

[charlton97]

My first CSI posting was also Bow St!!!!!!

I think we should start a ame called six steps removed...you know..none of us is more than 6 steps removed from anyone else ;.))))

[rmcase]

Dave, brilliant research... but already done.... though I am still waiting for a good excuse to visit London so I can gt to the National Archives.

But what you haven't noticed... is that you have got 2 James Stockleys there....

The first few from oldbaileyonline relate to the guy who retired in 1856/57

The second was the Jack the Ripper guy who began his career with the met in 1885.

In fact James no.1 is the father to James no.2. His career in the met was less than 10 years... but he became a prison officer after that.

Thanks for your help and for showing an interest!!

[Dennis Degler]

[rmcase]

Whilst scouring old issues of Fingerprint Whorld I have come across an article on Juan Steegers in the April 1979 journal.

Dennis, are you able to prove your theory?