[A MAJOR international fingerprint conference to be held in Scotland this week will be boycotted by experts over the refusal of Scottish Criminal Record Office (SCRO) analysts to admit they misidentified a fingerprint as policewoman Shirley McKie’s.]
With 130 delegates.....by the way 10 more than for Brighton last year, and with the list of speakers below, including me, Glenn L and other senior scientific figures, this does not strike me as a boycott??
This is another example of the way the media can distort and manipulate the facts. Lets be clear.....I want this matter resolved, fairly, amicably and professionally. But this won't be achieved through inuendo, backbiting and playground taunts. It will be achieved through science.
The Fingerprint Society is hosting a 1st class conference with ground breaking research being delivered to an audience of forensic professionals. The conference is NOT a political forum, NOT a grand inquisitor nor are we judge or jury. We just want to hold a conference where people feel welcome, can relax, and where scientists can learn something.
This is MY SPIN on this matter.
Friday 17 March
12.30 Registration / Buffet Lunch
13.45 Fingerprint Society A.G.M.
14.30 Opening of Conference by Margaret Barr, Director,
Scottish Police College
14.40 The Role of the Procurator Fiscal – Stewart Houston PF Lanark
15.15 Offender Profiling – Thinking as a scientist
Professor Vince Egan, Caledonian University
15.50 Comfort Break
16.00 Alternative Crime Scene Considerations:
Forensic Archaeology & Botany
Dr Jennifer Miller, Glasgow University
16.35 Forensic Entomology: Life after Death - Dr John Manlove
17.15 - 18.00 Exhibitor Presentations/Demonstrations
18.30 Pre Dinner Drinks – Castle Lounges
8.40 Gala Dinner
After Dinner Speakers: Mr Peter Wilson, Chief Constable Fife Constabulary,
President of ACPO(S)
Dr Robert Stewart,(Great Nephew of Dr Henry Faulds)
* Bar in Castle Lounges open until Midnight.
Saturday 18 March
07.30 Breakfast
09.00 The Scottish Fingerprint Service now and future partnerships under
a Scottish Forensic Science Service –Tom Nelson, Interim Director
Scottish Forensic Science Service
8.40 Lockerbie, the UK’s Largest Murder Enquiry – Kathleen Henderson
& Tom Gordon,
Dumfries & Galloway Constabulary
10.30 Coffee
8.40 ACEv thesis research – Glenn Langenburg, Minnesota, USA
11.50 Murder of Hilary Crowley – DCI Andrew Price, Central Scotland Police
12.50 Lunch and Exhibitor Demonstrations
14.00 The Suspension of Disbelief: Facts within Fiction– Alex Gray, Crime Novelist
14.35 Reviewing the Troubles Murders – Jeff Logan, Police Service of Northern Ireland
15.10 Comfort Break and Exhibitor Demonstrations
15.30 Levels of Friction Ridge Detail, Bane or Boon – Ernie Hamm U.S.A.
16.30 Exhibitor Presentations / Demonstrations
18.00 Bar open in Castle Lounges
8.40 Dinner
20.00 Some Traditional Scottish Entertainment – Dance with………
The Jiggers, Scotland’s Ultimate Ceilidh Experience (Ceilidh and Disco)
Sunday 19 March
07.45 Breakfast
08.30 Asian Tsunami: Introduction - David Charlton, Sussex Police
8.40 Asian Tsunami: DVI Command Structure - D/I David Llewellin,
West Mercia Police
09.10 Asian Tsunami: Occupational Health at Major Disasters – Margaret Thompson,
West Midlands Police
09.30 Asian Tsunami: Victim Identification By the Use of Fingerprints –
David Charlton, Sussex Police
10.00 Asian Tsunami: Forensic Odontology and Its Uses in Victim Identification –
Dr John Robson
10.30 Coffee and Exhibitor Demonstrations
11.05 Probabilistic Evaluation of Fingerprints – Paul Chamberlain &
Cedric Neumann, Forensic Science Service
11.30 Close of Conference Speeches
'Spinning out of control'
-
charlton97
- Posts: 184
- Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:51 pm
- Location: UK
- Contact:
-
Les Bush
- Posts: 229
- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:29 am
- Location: Australia
Whats in a meeting
Hi Dave,
I hope you have an enjoyable meeting and it brings together the progress of fingerprint science in your region. From afar the timing and place seem to put a huge cloud over why the McKie case isnt part of that agenda? Now that we are out of the darkness of court restrictions the matter can clearly be talked through. I understand that the meeting was planned during the process of court proceedings but the delegates would really want to know what happened. There is a large interest in the case both regionally and internationally and the meeting is being held at the epicentre so what better place for a discussion. Mr Mackenzie could present his famous result of comparison and open the meeting for discussion. Les
I hope you have an enjoyable meeting and it brings together the progress of fingerprint science in your region. From afar the timing and place seem to put a huge cloud over why the McKie case isnt part of that agenda? Now that we are out of the darkness of court restrictions the matter can clearly be talked through. I understand that the meeting was planned during the process of court proceedings but the delegates would really want to know what happened. There is a large interest in the case both regionally and internationally and the meeting is being held at the epicentre so what better place for a discussion. Mr Mackenzie could present his famous result of comparison and open the meeting for discussion. Les
-
charlton97
- Posts: 184
- Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:51 pm
- Location: UK
- Contact:
What is in a meeting?
Hi Les,
I do hear what you are saying. The Society cannot win on this one. Had we had the sort of presentation on the case as you describe, the society would have been highly criticised. We always wanted to keep the conference for education.
Now, if all parties were to agree to an open and honest debate on the technical issues of the fingermarks in question as scientists in a conference setting at some later date then I would be the first to put my name on the delegate list.....I want to understand myself how respected experts can have two such diverse conclusions as to the same data. This really does fascinate me. Who might organise such an event is open to offers and who would make an 'honest broker'. I can think of a few bodies that might want to act as broker....trouble is too many people have too many public opinions on this matter...what is needed is for the science and the scientists to take ownership of this debate once and for all...and dare I say it....take it away from the protagonists who will naturally have their own agendas. I for one would love to see both sides in this debate present their own data to a conference of experts in the field and to have a 'without fear or favour' debate on these technical questions.
Will this happen...I doubt it.....but I hope this may happen one day....I fear too much water has gone under the bridge over the past 9 years for this ever to be a reality. We shall see.
cheers
Dave
I do hear what you are saying. The Society cannot win on this one. Had we had the sort of presentation on the case as you describe, the society would have been highly criticised. We always wanted to keep the conference for education.
Now, if all parties were to agree to an open and honest debate on the technical issues of the fingermarks in question as scientists in a conference setting at some later date then I would be the first to put my name on the delegate list.....I want to understand myself how respected experts can have two such diverse conclusions as to the same data. This really does fascinate me. Who might organise such an event is open to offers and who would make an 'honest broker'. I can think of a few bodies that might want to act as broker....trouble is too many people have too many public opinions on this matter...what is needed is for the science and the scientists to take ownership of this debate once and for all...and dare I say it....take it away from the protagonists who will naturally have their own agendas. I for one would love to see both sides in this debate present their own data to a conference of experts in the field and to have a 'without fear or favour' debate on these technical questions.
Will this happen...I doubt it.....but I hope this may happen one day....I fear too much water has gone under the bridge over the past 9 years for this ever to be a reality. We shall see.
cheers
Dave
-
Iain McKie
- Posts: 192
- Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 1:23 am
- Location: Ayr, Scotland
- Contact:
Spinning out of control
Dear Dave,
While I respect you as an expert and a person you well know that the Fingerprint Society has been warned for years that their continued failure to act in the Shirley McKie case would harm your profession. Now the Society stands accused of allowing more and more damage to be caused to a vitally important forensic science.
In an inexplicable act of stupidity the Society allows its annual conference to be hosted by experts from SCRO.
As if to compound this misjudgement you state, “I want to understand myself how respected experts can have two such diverse conclusions as to the same data.”
Would you please explain to me on what grounds you base your conclusion that the SCRO experts who made two wrong identifications in the one case are ‘respected experts’ when enquiry after enquiry and hundreds of experts worldwide have accused them of incompetence and criminality.
There are indeed ‘respected experts’ within SCRO and throughout Scotland but to so describe the experts who for 9 years have continued to deny their errors is an insult to those others and provides ‘open day’ for your critics to further weaken your profession.
The experts are not respected David they are wrong and refuse to accept that they are. They are causing untold damage to fingerprinting and until you and the Fingerprint Society accepts this there is no going forward.
The media bears no responsibility for this. The Fingerprint Society has had the opportunity for years , “to take ownership of this debate” , but has completely failed its members in this respect.
One way forward is for the international fingerprint community to get its act together, offer to examine why things went so badly wrong at the SCRO and to recommend how those wrongs might be righted. Only through the creation of international standards and co-operation will you silence your critics. Sitting on the fence hoping that the controversy will go away is the strategy of despair.
Best wishes,
Iain
While I respect you as an expert and a person you well know that the Fingerprint Society has been warned for years that their continued failure to act in the Shirley McKie case would harm your profession. Now the Society stands accused of allowing more and more damage to be caused to a vitally important forensic science.
In an inexplicable act of stupidity the Society allows its annual conference to be hosted by experts from SCRO.
As if to compound this misjudgement you state, “I want to understand myself how respected experts can have two such diverse conclusions as to the same data.”
Would you please explain to me on what grounds you base your conclusion that the SCRO experts who made two wrong identifications in the one case are ‘respected experts’ when enquiry after enquiry and hundreds of experts worldwide have accused them of incompetence and criminality.
There are indeed ‘respected experts’ within SCRO and throughout Scotland but to so describe the experts who for 9 years have continued to deny their errors is an insult to those others and provides ‘open day’ for your critics to further weaken your profession.
The experts are not respected David they are wrong and refuse to accept that they are. They are causing untold damage to fingerprinting and until you and the Fingerprint Society accepts this there is no going forward.
The media bears no responsibility for this. The Fingerprint Society has had the opportunity for years , “to take ownership of this debate” , but has completely failed its members in this respect.
One way forward is for the international fingerprint community to get its act together, offer to examine why things went so badly wrong at the SCRO and to recommend how those wrongs might be righted. Only through the creation of international standards and co-operation will you silence your critics. Sitting on the fence hoping that the controversy will go away is the strategy of despair.
Best wishes,
Iain
As always my thanks to all experts who have supported Shirley over the years.
-
Les Bush
- Posts: 229
- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:29 am
- Location: Australia
This is one heck of a comparison
In recent times and by means never to be disclosed I've had the opportunity to see the charted 45 point analysis by McKenzie who was/is the Deputy head of SCRO. Ive also seen the comparison done by Zeelenberg of the areas used by SCRO and those he mapped out in the McKie print. We are talking about serious 'red flags' that cannot and should never be acceptable in our profession. I now know why McKenzie will not present his findings at the FS symposium as it would be embarrassing to him and the society. Whatever is the 'action plan' to restore best practice in SFS if the members of SCRO still 'believe' in their conclusion about the McKie print it will make little difference to restoring faith in their service. It will take a total capitulation to what true science requires and I'm afraid the current generation in SCRO have been tainted by a system that cannot face the truth. Bring on a public inquiry!